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This is the second part of Malaysian Digest's exclusive interview with President of Gerakan Mansuh ISA (GMI) Syed Ibrahim Syed Noh. To see the first part click here.
Malaysian Digest: Have there been any progress on the attempts to repatriate the two Malaysians Mohd Farik Amin and Mohammed Nazir Lep who are detained in Guantanamo Bay? They will be detained under ISA when they are brought back anyway right?
Syed Ibrahim: To tell you the truth I don’t know what’s happening to them neither do I know of the government’s plans for them. When the news came out we were all for it. To us, if the government is truly looking into the interest of Malaysians then they should bring them back but they should not be detained under ISA. They should be charged for whatever criminal acts they had done and if they are found guilty then they should be punished. But I don’t think that’s the government’s plan because the global war against terror is still there and just yesterday there’s news about detainees of Guantanamo Bay who were released but are linked to terrorism activities.
I think until there’s such a time where is no such perception towards these people than ISA will still be used. It’s a very convenient tool to use because you are trying to prevent a person from doing certain things that you think they’re doing. So it’s a preventive act. That’s the preventive space that they have. But then again even as a preventive law we should have also have a certain timeframe for you to then bring it to court. ISA is very indefinite so there’s no room for a person to defend himself. Even for preventive acts, we believe, they should have a certain time period, maybe two weeks, or like proposed by SUHAKAM, 30 days. That’s enough for you to actually investigate and gather more information without enforcing ISA and finally charge them if you need to, otherwise you free them.
In the case of the two detainees I believe it’s going to be difficult and the government is probably in a difficult situation because they still need to show support for the US as they are still the powerful sheriff in the world. It’s not easy for them to ask to repatriate them back and then not to take action against these two. So what you said is probably true, they may be repatriated and then detained under ISA but for us, GMI, we will fight for them until it’s proven that they have done a criminal act.
MD: Do you agree with the idea where ISA should be used only against those who are involved in terrorist activities?
SI: There were a lot of questions posed to me asking what we should do to terrorists because it’s there and it’s real. But what they’re actually asking me is: if there was no ISA would we be able to counter terrorism? Aren’t there other ways to counter terrorism without ISA? My answer to that is simple. Terrorism is terrorism. Terrorism is not political. Terrorism is not about forging documents or the other allegations ISA detainees are accused of. It’s not about writing or blogging.
We should define terrorism and add a special law against terrorism rather than have a law which is too wide that’s a very powerful tool. Rather than have all that why can’t we have a special enactment of law as what has been proposed by SUHAKAM which is Anti-Terrorism Act where you can actually have certain prohibitions saying that we should still maintain certain preventive clauses and at the same time maintain the basic human rights and justice. I think this is the basic understanding that people should have.
So at the moment there’s no judicial review or definite detention period, the power is too wide. ISA is not a law in actuality. Maybe it’s a law of the jungle. No one in the right mind, especially if you are a lawyer, would think that this is a right law. We are not for terrorism. I’m all for national security but I’m also for the security of the people, their rights and justice.
President of Gerakan Mansuh ISA Syed Ibraim Ayed Noh during a demonstration near Masjid Jamek.
Do you know of any other human rights groups that are trying to help get the two Malaysian detainees out of Guantanamo Bay?
The groups are not only trying to help these two but all (the detainees). These are groups that we’ve known for so long like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. I think they have been working on it for quite some time. In a way, we are also saying that we support them and the freedom of the detainees or at least a trial for them. Their conditions are quite bad. The torture stories that we hear are true and to be honest with you it’s probably the same as what we have here in Malaysia - putting people in a small room and in front of an air-conditioner without any clothes and being poured with ice-cold water.
Have anyone you know been in contact with family members of Mohd Farik Amin and Mohammed Nazir Lep?
Unfortunately no. though I think they may have connections with ISA detainees here who were detained for their links with JI (Jemaah Islamiah) in Malaysia because these groups somehow are linked to Al Qaeda and other terrorist activities. But I think they have been very low-key about this. This is to ensure the safety of their family members and to ensure there will be no unnecessary questions being asked because I know, at the same time, that there’s cooperation between Malaysia’s Special Branch and the CIA. We know the CIA have been to Kamunting.
You can say that these are all part of a conspiracy, terrorist links or global war against terror but when it comes to the bare fact have they been proven to be guilty of actually soliciting in terrorist activities? That’s a very basic question to ask. The only way to do this is to put them on trial.
"People are angry about ISA and how it is destructive for the families."
Is it true that the “methods neutralization” practised in ISA Singapore are harsher than the Malaysian one?
I’m not sure to be honest with you. We do have Singaporean ex ISA detainees before who were released and then deported to Singapore where they were then detained in the Singapore ISA. During that time we were in contact with their families who are Malaysians living in Johor Bahru so we knew certain things. We wrote to Singapore to ensure the freedom of the wives’ husbands.
We were not told on the harshness of the interrogation methods in Singapore ISA during our communication. We were only exposed to the fact that they are more professional in terms of communicating with their families and the public. When there are any new detentions or releases being made they actually issue statements. They also provide for the welfare of the families during the detention period.
I’m not saying that the ISA in Singapore is good. Their law is almost the same as Malaysia and we are also for the abolishment of ISA in Singapore. But it’s just that they are more professional with their detaining and releasing and the families. So if you at it that way, it looks as though Malaysia is harsher if you look at it from the rights of the detainees and their families and how the Malaysian police as well as the government handles the ISA.
They are being very secretive about it and the welfare of detainees’ families are not looked into although we’ve heard the prime minister and home minister say in parliament that “we’ll look after the welfare of the family” and they could actually apply for welfare money from Jabatan Kebajikan Masyarakat (JKM) and things like that. But do you know how difficult it is for the family to ask for money from JKM? The conditions that JKM put is very restrictive and when they finally get the money ,which is about RM250, it’s not enough to maintain a family of ten or even travel back and forth to Kamunting for visits. People are starting to get to know these things and that’s the reason people are getting very angry about ISA and how it is destructive for the families.
How do you feel about Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Tun Hussein stating that his proposed amendments on ISA will revolve around five areas – the length of detention, rights and treatment of detainees and their families, the power of the Home Minister, the use of ISA for political reasons and detention without trial?
Firstly, any minister of home affairs would need to follow the same government policies. Whether it’s Rais Yatim or Syed Hamid Albar and now Hishammuddin, they will be following the same policies that’s being implemented by the government. So they all have the same belief that ISA is required for the sake of national security.
As far as beliefs and understanding, I think there are differences between some of these ministers. If you look at it they are all lawyers by profession but they don’t practice so in a way it’s quite weird or illogical. Since they are lawyers they should believe in the rule of law, justice and judicial review. But in this case they are above and over that and ISA is above them and they do believe that it’s something valid because, to them, the interest of the majority supersede the interest of the minority. So, for them, anything can be used so that this minority group do not invoke certain threat to the majority. They fail to see that actually justice is for all, not just the majority, especially when it comes to basic human rights, and we‘re not talking about absolute rights. It’s hypocritical.
As far as I can see Hishammuddin will do whatever he can to defend ISA accept now they are seeing that there’s lots of voice of dissention and critics against ISA. I think to a certain extent we can say that this is through the work of GMI as well as people’s support through our brochures, flyers, articles and memorandums we’ve come up with. Those things worked though they might not admit it and it’s also because of the pressure of the people and the 2008 election.
Now we see a lot of parliamentarians and state assemblymen who are ex ISA detainees. I counted and there are about 14 of them from the Opposition - either once or twice, like Anwar, Lim Kit Siang, Lim Guan Eng. There’s even a classic case where a person won a seat while still detained under ISA. He’s M Manoharan, now a state assemblyman for Kota Alam Shah. That’s a real sign of protest by people against ISA.
With all these pressures, now the government is beginning to see that they need to make certain changes but the question now is: will these changes be real changes or just cosmetic or are they going to just take their time.
To be continued...
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